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They are designated by the chief justice of the United States to sit on this special court and hear these applications for wiretap warrants. And when necessary, they go to the Department of Justice, to a secure room, where they are presented with the facts that the Justice Department, the FBI, the CIA, NSA, has marshaled, to meet the standard: is there reasonable cause to believe that this person is an agent of a foreign power? And not just a foreign power, but also a possible terrorist? So the result has been that this bureaucratic, or, if you will, legal conflict has resulted in people deciding, "Well, I guess we just won't 'bug' these people, or won't do this wiretap." ...

But their office, or their courtroom, is not in the directory..Washington, I can't find them? Do you remember anything like that happening during your tenure?

If you think for a moment about the number of breweries in the world, is it reasonable to expect that any organization could identify every brewery in somebody's garage, in some obscure part of the world, that might be trying to "cook" a biological weapon that they want to launch against the United States? My own view is that we ought to look at the procedures and rules under which they operate.

It is physically not possible, and I think that nothing would be served by having an exercise in keelhauling U. We ought to look at the manner in which cooperation occurs or doesn't occur between the U. intelligence community and the law enforcement community.

And we have had a series of successes, over the years, in breaking up terrorist organization.

But while you were in the CIA as its general counsel, didn't we retrieve Ramzi Yousef..did all kinds of things, internationally, with this kind of restriction and bureaucracy in place? That point that a number of us have made, including former President Clinton, is that we have had a substantial and quite remarkable number of successes against terrorist groups prior to this terrible recent attack in September.

Let talk about the conflict between law enforcement and intelligence for a minute.... That is to say, the president could order the wiretap of an American citizen if he thought that this person was operating on behalf of a foreign power, was a spy.There are a number of other successes where we've broken up terrorist organizations, where we've prevented attacks before they occurred. And as I say, these organizations have developed their own counterintelligence operations; that is to say, activities that they undertake to try to block our ability to penetrate them. We successfully managed a balance of nuclear terror with the Soviets for 50 years, nearly, and we didn't blow one another up. Dealing with these groups is much, much more difficult.One of those successes, while you were in there--it was thought it was a success--was forcing the Sudanese government to expel Osama bin Laden. They are, as often said, para-statal; they're not a government; they're not a state; but they have many of the attributes of a state. We don't have formal relations with them like we did with the Soviet Union. And as we speak, they're working as hard as they can, pouring every resource, every ounce of energy they can into finding out who did this, finding out whether there are any future attacks being planned, and trying to prevent it.So in 1978, the Congress passed a statute called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act--often called FISA for short--that required that a warrant be obtained from a special court that sits to hear applications from the government to conduct these wiretaps within the United States.This is like a secret court inside the Justice Department building? These are sitting federal judges who ordinarily hear cases, routine cases, in federal court. government can prove that to the judge, the judge signs an order, which authorizes the wiretap. Now we understand that there have been occasions, some recent occasions actually, where there's a conflict between the use of these intelligence eavesdropping warrants to get access, and what may in fact be a criminal case.

One of the things that I've had to learn about recently is something called FISA [the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act]--or intelligence affidavits that go to a secret court. We could also target foreign installations in the United States, that is to say, embassies, and so on, without a warrant.

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